Peaceful dialogue with a Salafi

Interview with a Salafi

The salafi in question is in fact a pseudo-salafi, someone who believes himself following the path of our pious predecessors while he is only moving away from it.

Abdurrachid: Assalamou alaikoum wa rahmatoullali wa barakatouhou.

The Salafi: Assalamou 'ala manittaba'al'houda ("Peace be upon those who follow the Guided").

Abdurrachid: Dear Salafi brother, apparently I am not Muslim enough in your eyes to deserve normal greetings. Could I ask you why I am entitled to greetings reserved for non-Muslims?

The Salafi: I use these greetings when I do not know if my interlocutor is a true Muslim. Unfortunately today, many Muslims are hypocrites or even become kafirs because of the innovations (bid'as) they follow.

Abdurrachid: So for you, I'm not a real Muslim?

The Salafi: I did not say that. I just prefer to take precautions in case you are one of these hypocrites or if you do bid'a acts. Because all innovations lead to Hell for sure.

Abdurrachid: Apparently you already have a lot of prejudices about your Muslim brothers and sisters. But let's move on. Could you tell me more about the innovations (bid'as)?

The Salafi: Is bid'a any act that the Prophet (saw) did not do.

Abdurrachid: Ah good? Does this mean that using a computer is an innovation?

The Salafi: I did not say that.

Abdurrachid: But the Prophet (saw) never used a computer and so you shouldn't be using them, right? but hey, let's move on. Can you tell me why your name is Salafis?

The Salafi: We are called Salafis because we follow the path of the Salafs Salih who are our pious predecessors. They did not commit any bid'a, like the Muslims of today or some Muslims of the past.

Abdurrachid: And could you tell me how you are different from other Muslims?

The Salafi: Yes. We follow the Koran and the Sunnah, that's all.

Abdurrachid: Ah good ?? What do you think we are following? Wouldn't we follow the Koran and the Sunnah? Would we have another book than the Koran and another example than that of the Prophet (saw)?

The Salafi: What I mean is that you follow a little bit of the Koran and Sunnah but you follow too blindly the advice of certain people.

Abdurrachid: Which people? Are you talking about the great scholars of Islam?

The Salafi: I am talking about people like Malik, Abu Hanifa, Ash-shafi'i and Ahmad.

Abdurrachid: You mean that we are less Muslim than you because we follow the legal opinions of the great Imam Malik ibn Anas (ra), Imam Abu Hanifa (ra), Imam Ash-shafi'i and Imam Ahmad Ibn Hambal, who are surely among the greatest scientists that the Earth has carried?

The Salafi: What I am saying is that instead of following the Koran and the Sunnah, you are following the words of these scholars. But these scholars were men and therefore they could be wrong. We are based only on the Koran and the Sunnah and that is more than enough for us.

Abdurrachid: Can you tell me one thing: on what were these four famous Imams based to give legal advice? Were they not based on the Koran and the Sunnah?

The Salafi: Maybe, but we can do the same thing as them and so we don't have to follow them blindly.

Abdurrachid: You mean that you think you are up to these 4 Imams? Do you think you know as much as they do about religion?

The Salafi: At home, I have the Koran and I have the sahihs of Al-Boukhari and Mouslim. And that's the only thing you need to derive legal rules. So if I ask myself a question, I try to find a verse from the Koran that talks about it. And if there are no verses, I try to find a hadith that talks about it and that's it. Everything is in these three books.

Abdurrachid: Tell me, if your father is going to have heart surgery, would you take him to a cardiologist or would you do the surgery yourself?

The Salafi: I'm not crazy, I would take my father to the cardiologist.

Abdurrachid: Ah good? But you know that in the libraries you can get all the medical books you need to operate on your father. If I give you enough cardiology books, will you want to operate on your father?

The Salafi: Never! I am not crazy. It is not enough to read a few books to know how to do it. It takes years of experience in the field to understand things. It is all too complicated.

Abdurrachid: Here, there, you seem more reasonable. But do you realize that you are doing the exact opposite when it comes to the Koran and Sunnah?

The Salafi : How is that?

Abdurrachid: You say that you have the books at home and that you think you can derive legal rules from them. Do you not realize that you must at least be both an expert in the Koran and an expert in Hadith to be able to do what you want to do?

The Salafi: I don't know. In fact, every man is smart enough to do this job.

Abdurrachid: Do you know the conditions necessary to do what you want to do, that is to use directly the Koran and the Sunnah?

The Salafi: It suffices to know how to read Arabic and to have a Koran and the two collections of sahih, right? And then we use our head.

Abdurrachid: Oooops. Not really. First, do you know Arabic?

The Salafi: Yes, I can read and write. I had learned at the mosque when I was little. In addition, I took correspondence courses at CNED for a year. So I think I'm pretty good.

Abdurrachid: I don't really know if you realize what you are saying. It takes ordinary people decades to learn classical Arabic, its ultra-complicated grammar, etc., especially since today's Arabic has nothing to do with the Arab of the Prophet's time. (saw). You knew that most of the great Muslim scholars are experts in jahiliya poetry which is the Arabic poetry before the revelation. The level of Arabic we're talking about is something you and I will never know. It was during the revelation that the Arabic language was at its best. You never wonder why the people of the time converted just after hearing the Koran and why they recognized that the Koran was a miracle and that it could only come from Allah? You see, Allah the Most High sent his prophets with miracles. Each prophet was entitled to one or more miracles which varied according to the society in which he found himself. In Egypt, at the time of Moussa-Moses (as), there were many magicians (rather conjurers) and people believed that they had real powers. Thus, Allah the Most High sent Moussa (as) with REAL magic tricks, and the pseudo-magicians were the first to recognize that the things that Moussa (as) did were really miracles, as it is reported in the Koran. Likewise, at the time of 'Issa-Jesus (as), the Jews were the best in the field of medicine. Allah the Most High therefore sent 'Issa (as) giving him the power to heal the sick and even to raise the dead. The Koran is the same. At the time of the Prophet (saw), Arabic poetry was really at its best. There were poetry competitions in Mecca to see who had the purest Arab. When the Koran was revealed to the Prophet (saw), people immediately realized that it was not just poetry. They said to themselves that only a magician could create something similar. People were really shocked by the beauty and the eloquence of the Koran. Unfortunately, it is almost impossible for us to understand that the Koran is a miracle of the Arabic language because we do not have the level of Arabic necessary to realize it. This is why, you must understand that a perfect knowledge of the Arabic language is necessary to be able to read and understand the Koran. But knowing classical Arabic is not a sufficient condition for understanding the Koran. It is also necessary to have a broad knowledge of the sciences of Tafsir (commentary of the Koran). Each verse has been revealed in a specific context that you need to know before you can try to interpret the verse in question. And knowing the context of the revelations implies knowing the history of the revelation and knowing what the companions of the Prophet (saw) and those who followed them understood from the Koran. I hope you see a little that before you can derive from the rules of the Koran, you really have to be a crack in classical Arabic and Tafsir. And there, I'm not even talking to you about everything you need to know about the rules of abrogated / abrogating verses, and other sciences related to the Koran.

The Salafi: Yes, I see. Is that all?

​

Abdurrachid: No my friend, that was only for the Koran. Now for Sunnah, it's easy to have a copy of the sahih at home, but that doesn't make you an expert on hadith. You may not know that there are also commentaries on hadiths. All because the hadiths also have contexts associated with them. Tell yourself that the prophetic mission lasted 23 years and therefore the thousands of hadith that we know come from this period of 23 years. Thus, you will understand that certain hadiths can come to cancel previous hadiths relating to the same subject. This is why one must know all the possible details on each hadith. In parallel, you must be an expert in hadith in the sense that you must master the science of classification of hadith, that is to say the rules used by scholars of hadith to determine that a hadith is authentic, good, weak, or forged. And there, I only summarize because in truth, there are many more levels between pure authenticity and weakness or invention. If you see a hadith said to be "weak", you must know why it was classified weak: is it because at a level of transmission there is only one person who reported it? Is it because the person who reported it once missed a prayer at the mosque? You know, Imams Boukhari and Mouslim were very strict when they studied the authenticity of a hadith. They had lists of conditions that the hadith had to meet to be considered authentic. So you, if you want to derive legal rules from hadith, you must have a very deep knowledge of the science of hadith. Now what would you do if you came across two hadiths that seem to contradict each other? Would you take the one that suits you the most? This is surely not the solution to adopt.

The Salafi: And that's it? You just need to know the sciences of the Koran and the hadiths?

Abdurrachid: No. After you have the basics of the Qur'an and Sunnah, you need to learn how to derive legal rules from these sources. You must therefore learn Oussoul-al-fiqh, the roots of jurisprudence.

The Salafi: How is that?

Abdurrachid: Look, if you know how cars are made and how roads are made, that doesn't mean you can drive. You must learn to drive before you can use your knowledge of the road and the car.

The Salafi: Ok. But tell me, who in the world can learn so much? If we have to wait to know as much, we are not ready to give legal opinions!

Abdurrachid: It is clear that people like you and I will never reach the level necessary to derive legal rules from the Koran and the Sunnah. But it is our Muslim scholars who do this work. They are the experts and some of them have reached the level necessary to give legal advice. Among them are Imams Malik, Abu Hanifa, Ash-shafi'i and Ahmad. They were even better than our current scholars because they lived right after the Prophet (saw) and therefore they were in direct contact with tabi'ines, the descendants of the companions of the Prophet (saw). And as the Prophet (saw) said, the best generations were three: his, then the next, then the next. But that does not mean that there are no great scholars in each generation. It is just that they will probably never reach the level of the ancient scholars of Islam. ?

The Salafi: Ok, but why should we follow what such and such a scholar said when we have the same sources as these scholars, namely the Koran and the Sunnah?

Abdurrachid: Have you spent your whole life studying Islamic sciences? Do you meet the conditions to be a moujtahid, someone who can derive legal rules from two sources? Apparently not and therefore you must follow the advice of those who know best. Allah the Most High says in the Qur'an "ask the people tof the recall if you do not know" (Sura 16, verse 43). Experts in tafsir (exegesis) of the Koran say that the "people of the recall" are Muslim scholars. So taqlid, following the advice of scientists, is compulsory for anyone who has not fulfilled the conditions to be a learned mujtahid fil-shar himself, i.e. a scientist who has fulfilled all the conditions to be able to derive the rules from the Koran and the Sunnah without the need of anyone. In addition, it is forbidden for this kind of scientist to follow anyone, that is to say, to practice taqlid, because he is too learned for that. The 4 Imams we were talking about were precisely fil-shar moujtahids and among the best that ever existed on Earth. This is why one must follow the schools which were created on their teachings, namely the Malékite, Hanafite, Shafi'ite and Hanbalite schools.

The Salafi: Wait, wait. Do you mean that we should follow what Malik says instead of what the Prophet (saw) says?

Abdurrachid: Calm down my friend. Tell yourself that what Imam Malik (ra) said, he did not get out of his head, but he used the Koran and the Sunnah for that. When we say "Imam Malik said ..." we mean by "Imam Malik said, based on certain verses from the Koran and certain hadiths ...". All the legal opinions of the 4 Imams and their successors in the 4 schools are based on the Koran and the Sunnah as well as on a number of rules found in the discipline of Oussoul-al-fiqh. These rules were all used by the Prophet (saw) or the companions (ra).

The Salafi: But Malik and the others said: "If you find a hadith that contradicts something I said, follow this hadith", so that means that Malik knew that he was not perfect and therefore that 'We had to study the Hadith by ourselves, right?

Abdurrachid: Do you know who Imam Malik (ra) and the others were talking to when they said that? Do you think they were aimed at you? Well no ! In fact, they were aimed at those who were constantly with them, that is, their students. These students were not students like those of today. They were students of Imam Malik (ra), of Imam Abu Hanifa (ra) but they were themselves great scholars. Do you want examples?

The Salafi: Yes because I don't really see what you mean.

Abdurrachid: For example, Imams Shafi'i and Ahmad were students of Imam Malik (ra). They were therefore students but Imams at the same time. It is this kind of students that the 4 Imams were addressing when they said: "If you find a hadith that contradicts something I said, follow this hadith". Unfortunately many people today believe that this advice applies to everyone and that everyone can play learned apprentices.

The Salafi: But in this case, you ask me to blindly follow one of the 4 schools of jurisprudence?

Abdurrachid: No. In fact when I was talking about taqlid, I didn't tell you that there are two types of taqlid. The mouttabi 'is one who follows a school while trying to understand how each rule of jurisprudence was derived, which verses and which hadiths were used. The mouttabi 'is therefore someone who spends time studying Islamic sciences. On the other side, there is the muqallid, who is the Muslim who follows a school without trying too hard to understand the why and how of the thousands of legal opinions that exist. The muqallid has enough confidence in the great scholars of Islam and does not want or cannot follow all the demonstrations to arrive at the legal rules. It is always better for the Muslim to try to understand the maximum and therefore to be a mouttabi 'rather than a mouqallid, but not all Muslims can afford to spend time studying the thousands of demonstrations that exist, of the more they don't all have the intellectual level required for that. People have to work for a living and therefore many people can only be muqallid and trust the legal opinions issued by the great Muslim scholars. What you also need to understand is that the scholars of Islam are people who have spent their entire lives studying Islam. Today, you see young people going to study 5 years (or often much less) in an Islamic university or not and come out of it believing they have become great scholars who only need the Koran and Hadiths to give legal advice .

The Salafi: Yes, but why should we follow scholars who lived centuries ago? We no longer live in their time as far as I know.

Abdurrachid: Remember that these scholars were among the best three generations. And the 4 schools are not just the 4 Imams. The 4 schools of jurisprudence have received contributions from thousands of scholars for more than 10 centuries. Basically, we have 1400 years of knowledge and Islamic history behind us. Those who want to put everything in the trash to "go back to the basics of the Koran and the Sunnah" are crazy. It is as if you decided to refuse to take modern medicine as it is, and you wanted to start from scratch by starting to dissect bodies to discover for yourself the organs, diseases, etc. You can't reinvent the wheel anyway. And this is precisely what those who believe that the 4 schools did not bother to return to the "Koran and the Sunnah" to base their legal opinions do. Perhaps they imagine that the scholars of the 4 schools are based on the Bible. I don't know what's going on in their heads. Look, when you're sick, you go to the doctor, right? Well, why do you trust this doctor who only repeats what he has learned and what has been developed over the centuries? Every day, you trust experts, whether experts in medicine, finance, language, etc. without questioning their knowledge. If you want to learn Chinese, I think you will take a English-Chinese dictionary to save time, right? Won't you try to find out for yourself what each word that exists in Chinese means?

The Salafi: Of course not.

Abdurrachid: So why in Islam are you not consulting the experts rather than doing the work by yourself? It's not logical, is it?

The Salafi: Let's say that you are right and that I want to use the knowledge that has been accumulated for 14 centuries, which school of jurisprudence should I follow and which is more right?

Abdurrachid: First, you really have to realize that the 4 schools are equivalent and that there is no superior to the others. Even though the opinions of the 4 schools differ for a number of questions, ALL these opinions are based on the Koran and the Sunnah. Basically, it's like you want to go to Paris and you decide to take a specific path to get there. If someone else takes a different route from yours to get there, they will still arrive in Paris. The two paths will be equivalent, right? In Islam, our goal is to satisfy Allah the Most High and these 4 schools give you the recipe to reach this goal.

The Salafi: But do we have the right to choose the school we want for each different question we ask? I mean do we have the right to choose the opinion that we like the most?

Abdurrachid: It is not at all recommended to have fun shopping in the 4 schools by taking the advice you want (often the least strict). The scholars of the 4 schools derived the legal opinions according to a certain methodology. This methodology is different depending on the school. That is why there are differences between schools. But again, the methodologies are all good, it's just that they're different. An example would be that in such a school, the scientist would prefer a weak hadith rather than the opinion of a companion. In another school, it will be the opposite. These are the choices one must make and there are no bad choices. It's like you're hesitating between putting on a white shirt or a green shirt. Some people prefer white while others prefer green. Those who prefer white will say that the Prophet (saw) loved white. But those who prefer green can also say that the Prophet (saw) loved green. So basically there is not a single answer. Both are possible and cannot be separated.
For the 4 schools, it's exactly the same. You can't really decide when there are different opinions because the differences are based on choices that are as good as each other. But that, if you study the basics of Oussoul-al-fiqh a little, you will quickly understand what I am talking about and you will very quickly realize the great wisdom of the scholars. And the more you know, the more you will be amazed by the genius of the faqih and the 4 great Imams. And as your knowledge has increased, you will be much more tolerant of others. Do not believe that the 4 schools are enemies of each other. In the past, there was a Muslim woman who was among the best scholars of the Ummah. She had 4 children and decided to have them study a different school of jurisprudence for each. She wanted each of her children to become a scientist in one of the 4 schools. Do you see tolerance? I tell you frankly that there are only the ignorant who still believe that the 4 schools are enemy schools and that these schools have divided the Ummah ... You know, the way of Islam is wide and not narrow as some would have us believe. These people want to make Islam more complicated than it is.

The Salafi: Yes, but isn't following a school or someone else's advice reserved for really ignorant people? For me, for example, who knows a lot about Islam, will I have to go to school?

Abdurrachid: Did you know that Omar (ra) followed certain opinions of Abu Bakr (ra) by saying that he would be too ashamed before Allah the Most High to have a different opinion from Abu Bakr (ra)? And did you know that Ibn Massoud (ra), despite the fact that he was a moujtahid in the true sense of the term, sometimes followed the advice of Omar (ra)? Did you know that Imams Boukhari, Mouslim and An-Nawawi were Shafi'is? The list of great scholars of Islam who belonged to a school is very long. As I told you, only the scholars who have reached the level of moujtahid fil-shar are not part of any school because of their immense knowledge. These are the only people who can afford not to follow anyone's advice. You know, Ibn Taymiyyah did not ask people not to follow the 4 schools and to derive legal rules all by themselves in their corner. Ibn Taymiyyah and Ibn al-Qayyim were aimed more at Muslim students who had already reached a certain level of Islamic knowledge. They were the ones they told not to blindly follow what they were learning. And this advice was given by ALL great scholars to their students. Now, if you think you've reached the level of the students I'm talking about ...

The Salafi: But Ibn Taymiyyah (ra) was a great scholar anyway, and he knew what he was talking about.

Abdurrachid: We have 14 centuries of Islamic knowledge and the only scientist you know is Ibn Taymiyyah? You still have to open your eyes and see the thousands of great scholars who have had much more impact on the Ummah than Ibn Taymiyyah. You know, just because yoyos are fashionable doesn't mean they are the best invention of humanity. Some allow themselves to insult scholars like Sheikh Al-Qaradawi when they would kill us if we said that Ibn Taymiyyah is not a perfect scholar. You realize ? People who do not even know 3 suras of the Koran and who come to insult a scientist who has spent his life studying Islam ?? When you were still doing in your diapers, he had more knowledge than anything you could accumulate in your life. It is clear that no scientist is perfect and therefore that even Sheikh Al-Qaradawi is not perfect. Besides, everyone, including scientists, agrees on this point. But we cannot throw people away because they are not perfect, otherwise there would be no one left. Now, when it comes to calling "kafir" all Muslims you don't like, it's a really dangerous game. Do not forget that whoever says of his brother that he is a kafir and that this is not true, becomes himself a kafir. My advice is that you should never say the word "kafir" when speaking of a Muslim. It is not because we seem to be committing bid'a acts in your eyes that we are no longer Muslim. Be careful anyway because it is a very serious subject. You also know, it's not because I don't call myself Abu Osama or Abu something else that I am less Muslim than you. Look, me when I go to an exam, if I haven't worked my lessons seriously, I will probably crash. Just because I'm going to the exam wearing pretty clothes and having nice pens and a nice calculator doesn't mean that I will get a good grade. So for you, it is very good to have all the outward signs of Islam, but that is not enough to make you a Muslim.

The Salafi: It's true.

Abdurrachid: To finish, I would just like to give you one last piece of advice: do not play tough, with regard to the Koran and the Hadiths. You have to have immense knowledge before you can use these sources to derive rules. Rather, leave that to the specialists, those who have spent their lives studying. Don't let your pride make you think you are a scientist. And don't just read the writings of people who think like you. Because if you only read that, you will never change. May Allah the Most High forgive us and keep us on the Way. Amine.

The Salafi: Amine.

Abdurrachid: Assalamou alaikoum wa rahmatoullali wa barakatouhou

The Salafi: Wa alaikoumou salam wa rahmatoullali wa barakatouhou, my brother.

Translated from french,source

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